"A wise man proportions his beliefs to the evidence." -David Hume

Menu:

• Welcome!
• Contact info

Links:

- Astronomy/Physics
- Audio/Video
- Audio/Video PC
- Automotive
- Billiards
- Books/Movies
- Computer Retail
- Golf
- Maps Online
- Misc
- Search Engines
- Technology News
- Sports
- Weather

Version:

augenstein1 v1.??
-Joel Augenstein

The Seconds list

by Tom Mullaney on Jan 28, 1998 for alt.smokers.cigars

maintained & updated by Joel Augenstein, July 28, 2004 – Aug. 12, 2004

Introduction
I. What are seconds? 1. True Seconds 2. Short/Medium Filler 3. Trainers 4. House Brands
II. Why buy Seconds? 1. Economy 2. Availability 3. Variety
III. The Seconds List Old Fashioned (Macanudo & Partagas) Consuegra Seconds (Punch, Belinda, ERDM, HdM, JR Ultimates) Flor de Ybor City (Arturo Fuente) Pride Of Copan (Zino) Rollers Choice (Cubita & Fonseca) El Credito, banded (La Gloria Cubana) Caribbean Seconds (Casa de Klafters) Super Premium (I) (Pleiades) Super Premium (II) (Romeo y Julieta Vintage & Credo) El Rico Habano Seconds Licenciados Segundos Te Amo Seconds Roly Seconds El Sublimado Bundles
IV. Unverified Seconds Lane Bundles (Dunhill and Montecruz) Consolidated Bundles (H. Upmann and Don Diego) WyD Bundles (Don Tomas) Kings (Casa Blanca) La Aurora & Leon Jimines seconds Revolucion’ (CAO)
V. Removed from List Private Stock (Davidoff)

Introduction
There is a great deal of confusion concerning seconds of premium cigars. Some manufacturers claim that unsalable premium cigars are destroyed at the factory while others openly sell seconds (or segundos, as they are sometimes called) with the brand name openly displayed.

This document is an attempt to provide smokers of premium cigars with sufficient information about the subject so that they may determine if seconds fit with their pattern of buying and smoking cigars.

Contributions of additional information are welcomed. Send them to: seconds.list@augenstein1.com.


I. What are seconds?
Seconds can be grouped into the following categories:

1. True Seconds

These are the cigars that are pulled out of rollers bundles because they have imperfections that make them unacceptable for sale as Primos. Generally, the more exclusive (and higher priced) the brand the more carefully the seconds are selected out. The appearance seconds are removed due to discolored or spotted wrappers, large veins either in the wrapper or in the binder which show through the wrapper, chipped or torn wrappers, unevenly applied caps and misshapen figurados. Other seconds are from manufacturers who weigh their finished cigars and pull those out that fall outside of a standard weight, with the assumption that they will have an inferior draw.

2. Short/Medium Filler

When the amount of prime tobacco leaf that is trimmed in the process of constructing a premium cigar it is understandable why short and medium filler cigars are manufactured by premium cigar companies. They come under various names, with ‘cazadores’ and ‘fumas’ designations commonly used. This type of cigar usually burns differently from its long filler counterpart but often maintains the flavor of the line. However they may also contain tobacco from bales or leaves from within bales which is considered to be of lower quality after inspection.

3. Trainers

With the upsurge in cigar demand and the resulting increase in the number of factories more rollers need to be trained. Their output, generally known as “trainer cigars,” are appearing on the market. The cigars made by apprentice rollers are sometimes constructed from tobacco made available specifically for that purpose or from that used in short/medium filler cigars. These cigars have the widest variation, going from the first attempts by newly hired rollers to the final products of those ready to join the ranks of the regular rollers.

4. House Brands

Many cigar distributors have cigars made specifically for them at large manufacturing facilities. They often bear designations “made for ‘XXX’ in the ‘YYY’ factory.”  Although in numerous cases they have a different blend, there are some that have been identified as seconds of well known brands.


II. Why buy Seconds?
There are some good reasons to buy seconds;

1. Economy

Seconds represent a tremendous value compared to the banded versions of the name cigars; in some cases costing as little as 20% of the name brands.

2. Availability

Often when a brand is in short supply, the seconds are still available, allowing the consumer to continue smoking their favorite brand and at a lower price.  

3. Variety

A number of cigar smokers are looking for something new to try and seconds give then an opportunity to sample new brands at a reasonable cost.


III. The Seconds List
The following have been confirmed by numerous cigar smokers as seconds of well known brands:



Old Fashioned (Macanudo & Partagas)
Distributed by Mike's Cigar in Miami, Old Fashioned’s are also available from other suppliers. The line is divided between the Macanudo and Partagas lines. With the exception of a few Macanudo items that are sold under their standard retail names, Those with two digit numerical designations are the Partagas seconds, those with three digit designations are Macanudo seconds. Pricing is around 40% of MSRP. (Not all items have matches.)

Updated:  The sizes and equivilent premiums of Old Fashions were added and expanded from 2 posts on CigarPass.com on August 6, 2004. They were posted by Txmatt and FullMoonFrenzy referred me to Cigarweekly.com's Old Fashioned list.

Name	Size	Partagas/Macanudo
#1	6 ⅛ x 50	Punch/Hoyo Seconds
#2	6 ¾ x 48	Punch/Hoyo Seconds
#3	4 ½ x 50	Punch/Hoyo Seconds
#4	5 ¾ x 45	Punch/Hoyo Seconds
#5	6 ½ x 43	Punch/Hoyo Seconds
#6	5 ½ x 38	Punch/Hoyo Seconds
#7	7 ¾ x 54	Punch/Hoyo Seconds
#8	6 ½ x 54	Punch/Hoyo Seconds
Chico	4 ⅛ x 32	Cameroon - Partagas Purito Seconds
Chico	4 ⅛ x 32	Natural/Cafe - Macanudo Ascot Seconds
#31	6 ¾ x 43	Partagas #1
#32	5 ¾ x 43	Partagas #2
#33	5 ¼ x 43	Partagas #3
#34	5 x 38	Partagas #4
#36	6 x 34	Partagas #6
#38	6 ¼ x 47	Partagas Almirante Seconds
#40	7 ½ x 49	Partagas #10
#41	5 ½ x 49	Partagas Naturales Seconds
#42	4 ½ x 49	Partagas Robusto
#46	7 x 52	?
#50	4 ⅛ x 32	?
#004	5 x 38	Macanudo Robust Petit Corona
#005	5 ½ x 42	Macanudo Robust Duke of Devon
#007	6 ½ x 42	Macanudo Robust Baron Rothchild
#250	6 x 31	Macanudo Claybourne
#350	7 x 34	Macanudo Portofino
#400	5 x 38	Macanudo Petite Corona Seconds
#500	5 ½ x 42	Macanudo Duke Of Devon
#550	5 x 50	Macanudo Hyde Park
#555	5 ½ x 49	Macanudo Robust Hyde Park
#600		?
#700	6 ½ x 42	Macanudo Baron De Rothschild
#745	7 x 45	Macanudo Sovereign
#749	7 ½ x 49	Macanudo Prince Philip
#850	8 x 52	Macanudo Prince of Wales
#947	7 ½ x 49	?

Consuegra Seconds (Punch, HdM, Belinda, ERDM, and JR Ultimates)
In this case Lew Rothman says that these are seconds of Punch, Hoyo de Monterey, Belinda, El Rey Del Mundo, and JR Ultimates from the Villazon factory, but a size by size comparison does not produce enough matches to confirm this.

Updated:  Txmatt of CigarPass.com on August 1, 2004 listed the following in a post. The Consuegra Seconds consisting of the following: Hoya de Monterrey, Punch, Belinda and El Rey Del Mundo.

No.	Size	Premium
#1	6 ½ x 42	Ultimates Cetro, Punch Oxford Deluxe
#2	4 ¹/5 x 28	Ultimates Habanella, Punch Slim Panatella
#3	5 ½ x 43	BF Corona, Hoya de Monterrey Tubo, Belinda Spanish Twist
#5	5 ½ x 37	Ultimates Petit Cetro, El Rey Del Mundo Tino, Excalibur VI
#8	5 ½ x 28	El Rey Del Mundo Elegantes
#9	4 ½ x 50	Punch / Hoya de Monterrey / Ultimates Rothschild
#10	5 x 41	Punch London club, Hoya de Monterrey Sabrosos
#14	7 ¼ x 54	Bolivar Fuertes 754, Ultimates 1, Ultimates Cab 60, El Rey Del Mundo Robusto Suprema, Hoya de Monterrey Sultans, Punch Chateau L
#15	6 ¼ x 54	Excalibur II, Hoya de Monterrey Churchill
#16	6 x 48	Punch Pita
#17	5 ½ x 47	Hoya de Monterrey Café Royale, Punch Grand Cru Superior
#18	7 ¼ x 46	Belinda 1835, Punch After Dinner
#25	6 ¾ x 48	Flor De A. Allones Prominente, Bolivar Fuertes / Ultimates / Hoya de Monterrey / Punch Double Corona, Excalibur Banquet, Punch Grand Cru Monarcha
#26	5 ½ x 42	?
#28	8 ½ x 52	Ultimates / Hoya de Monterrey / Punch Presidente, Excalibur Emperor, El Rey Del Mundo Coronation, Punch Grand Cru Prince Consort
#29	6 x 41	?
#30	5 ¼ x 50	Ultimates Cab 20, Excalibur Epicure, Punch Corona Gorda Deluxe, Punch Grand Cru Robusto
#68	5 x 37	Flor De A. Allones Especiale 5, Bolivar Fuertes Palmita, El Rey Del Mundo Reynita
#70	5 ½ x 44	El Rey Del Mundo Corona, Hoya de Monterrey Super Hoyo, Punch Café Royales, Punch Royal Coronation
#72	5 x 54	Bolivar Fuertes 554, Ultimates Cab 40, El Rey Del Mundo Robusto Zavalla, El Rey Del Mundo Robusto
#73	6 x 54	Flor De A. Allones Regordo, Bolivar Fuertes 654, Ultimates Cab 50, El Rey Del Mundo Reserva Salado
#73M	6 x 54	Ultimates Principale, El Rey Del Mundo Robusto Larga
#84T	6 x 54	El Rey Del Mundo Flor de Llaneza, Punch Grand Cru No. 2
#84B	6 x 50	Flor De A. Allones / Ultimates, Bolivar Fuertes Belicoso
#108	6 ½ x 46	Ultimates Cab 10

Flor de Ybor City (Arturo Fuente)
Tampa Sweetheart.com offers a line that are Arturo Fuente Seconds. The line is not complete and so far only green band lines have been identified. Pricing is around 1/2 of MSRP.

Name	Size	Fuente Equivilent
Toro	4 ½ x 50	Rothchilde or Chateau Fuente
Corona	5 ¼ x 45	Cuban Corona
#4	5 ½ x 43	?
Belicoso	5 ½ x 49	?
#1	6 ½ x 43	Curly Head Deluxe
#85	6 x 47	Flor Fina 8-5-8
#80	6 x 50	shortened Double Chateau
#270	6 ¾ x 44	Seleccion Privada #1
#75	7 x 36	?
Peirce	7 ¼ x 48	Churchill
Presidente	8 ½ x 52	Canones

They also have a line called "Tampa Sweetheart Bundles" which are trainer cigars from the Fuente factory. The full line has not been identified and no black band items are known.


Pride Of Copan (Zino)
Seconds of Davidoff's Zino line, some items have also been shortened. Not quite as big a value as the Davidoff seconds, they still are reasonable. As with the Davidoff's they suffer from the sameavailability problems. (Not all items have matches.)

Name	Zino
#1	Veritas
#2	Tradition
#3	?
#4	Mouton Cadet No.2
#5	Juniors
#6	Mouton Cadet No.4
#7	?

RollersChoice (Cubita & Fonseca)
Made in the Cubita factory these seconds represent both the Cubita and Fonseca lines. The two lines share few sizes so the seconds follow the size chart of each brand. They appear on numerous price lists but oftenare unavailable. Pricing is around 1/2 of the primos.


El Credito, banded (La Gloria Cubana)
These are the acknowledged seconds of the La Gloria Cubana line. Examples have been seen from both the Miami and Dominican Republic factories. Included in the line are two short filler cigars, the Super Habanero and Fumas. These should not be confused with the El Credito trainer cigars sold by Mom's and the El Credito Special cigars sold by Holt's. These are separate identifiable unbranded lines, the first being the ones produce by the apprentice rollers at the Dominican Republic factory and the other a different blend.


Caribbean Seconds (Casa de Klafters)
Currently available through Cigar Express these are seconds from the primary Caribbean lines. The natural wrapper cigars are identified as Signature Collection/Santiago Cubana if they are in cello, Calle Ocho if uncelloed. The maduros are Havana Classicos. Most of these seconds are a year old or greater. Pricing is usually around 1/3 of MSRP or less.


Super Premium (I) (Pleiades)
The first of the cigars sold under this name are seconds from Pleiades and are available from Mom's Cigar in New York. Pricing is around 25% of MSRP.


Super Premium (II) ( Romeo y Julieta Vintage & Credo)
The other line that bears this name are the seconds of Romeo y Julieta Vintage and Credo. The items numbered #100-400 are from the Romeo y Julieta line, #500-900 from Credo. They are listed in some of the Texas cigar stores and have been available from Cigar Express. Expect pricing at around 1/2 MSRP when they are available.


El Rico Habano Seconds
Holts has been selling these at 60% of MSRP. No other sources have been found.


Licenciados Segundos
Distributed by Mike's Cigar, these can also be found at Cigar Express and some other places. Usually 50% or less of MSRP


Te Amo Seconds
Widely available from JR and other sources. Priced at less than 50% of MSRP


Roly Seconds
Seconds of the Roly line they are listed in the Puros Indios catalog. They bear different names than the Primos but are readily identifiable by the size. Priced at less than 50% of MSRP


El Sublimado Bundles
Cigar Express has carried these for some time. They are bundles of 50 of the El Sublimado Corona at a very attractive price. They have been stored for long enough that the peculiar smell of the cognac flavoring.


IV. Unverified Seconds

There is a lot of information floating around about seconds which cannot be verified or on which differences of opinion exist. Additions and clarifications to this section will be appreciated.


Lane Bundles (Dunhill and Montecruz)
Sold as seconds from Dunhill and Montecruz these have only been found at individual cigar shops and not in mail order catalogs. Jay Takacs and David Clark get them from their local shops who say they are from Lane. Lew Rothman says they aren’t what they are reputed to be.


Consolidated Bundles (H. Upmann and Don Diego)
Sold as seconds of H. Upmann and Don Diego these have only been found at individual cigar shops and not in mail order catalogs. Binny Satin and Denis McGrath both have sources that say they are from the primary lines. Doubt of their provenance comes from some different in sizing from the Primos.


WyD Bundles (Don Tomas)
Reputed to be Don Tomas seconds but no confirmation has been made.


Kings (Casa Blanca)
Some believe that these are Casa Blanca seconds due to the close comparisons, particularly on the large unique sizes, but this has not been confirmed.


La Aurora & Leon Jimines seconds
Keith Bell reported getting these from Thompsons and Jon Hollembaek got some from Cigar Express. Confirmation pending.


Revolucion’ (CAO)
Kansashat of Clubstogie.com on July 28, 2004 believes the Revolucion line at BestCigarPrices.com are the true 2nd to CAO. They are packed in boxes of 20.


V. Removed from List

These used to be on the list, but for some reason or another have been removed.


Private Stock (Davidoff)
These are the seconds of the Dominican Davidoff line and are an excellent value. At current pricing a box of Private Stock #1 lists for around $85, a box of Davidoff Aniversario #1 lists for $450. With the stringent appearance guidelines that Davidoff maintains for its signature brand the smallest of appearance defects will cause a down grade to seconds status. Availability can be a problem with these, even though they show up on many price lists. (Some items have been cut down by 1/4-1/2 in. Not all items have matches.)

Update: (August 11, 2004) icculus1946 of CigarWeekly.com's forum posted that these are no longer seconds (branched off to become their own brand around 1999) and after some further research, an email from Davidoff confirmed it:

"Private Stock cigars are their own brand. They are not Davidoff secondos and they are produced in a different manufactory. The blend of the Private Stock cigars is also different. The common between Davidoff and Private Stock is ownership of brand - the owner is the Oettinger IMEX AG in Basel, Switzerland. Unfortunately we have to inform you that we do not sell Davidoff 'seconds.' Davidoff cigars are only availalble in first class quality."
- Kind regards, Davidoff International, Dirk Metzeler

Name	Davidoff
#1	Aniversario #1
#2	Aniversario #2
#3	3000
#4	No. 2
#5	?
#6	5000
#7	?
#8	?
#9	Ambassadrice
#10	Grand Cru #4 or #5
#11	Special "R"